whats about image-stabilisation?: Nikon Pro DX SLR (D500, D300, D200, D100) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (2024)

Werner007wrote:

I want to buy my first DSL-camera. But I am very disapoint that the
new D300
also not have a in built image-stabilisation system.

I have the adavantage of a beginner, I have no lens from Nikon or
Canon. Therefore no in built image-stabilisation is a KO-criterium.

What do you think about this feature?

If I were you I would wait to see what Pentax and Sony have to offer.

The last Pentax camera that came out won almost every major industry award you could find. with built in Stabalization.

I wouldent recomend it over what the D300 seems to offer, but I would wait and see what they offer by mid to late September.

Hokumwrote:

The sensor based IS has two flaws
1, many of the 5D and 7D's are not failing as the IS dies, so you
have shorter camera life.
2, the IS is not specialised to any specific lens, where as lens
based is designed for THAT lens.
--

http://paulgibbs.fotoblog.co.uk/

I dont think I really understand what your saying but will reply anyway.
If you are generalising about in camera IS then please dont.

On the pentax forum, I have seen all sorts of problems that are common.... but not one with the IS system, probably as it works on magnets and not direct like the KM/Sony system.

So what if the IS is lens specific. Can that not be programmed into the camera. how to work at differant focal lengths.

Not to mention you can use any lens with it on! be it fisheye or 800mm tele

Freedolinwrote:

Sadly neither C or N
have wide or standard f2.8 zooms with VR.

Canon has the truly great EF-S 17-55/2.8 IS.

Agree on Nikon, though, I whish there was a fast standard zoom with VR.

This is one factor beginning to sway me towards the 40D rather than D300. It's so frustrating. One minute I want the Nikon, next minute the Canon. Neither is perfect, both have advantages.

steelskiwrote:

I dont think I really understand what your saying but will reply anyway.
If you are generalising about in camera IS then please dont.
On the pentax forum, I have seen all sorts of problems that are
common.... but not one with the IS system, probably as it works on
magnets and not direct like the KM/Sony system.

I admit i havent heard of any pentax issue withpremature death, other than its not very good at stabilizing!

So what if the IS is lens specific. Can that not be programmed into
the camera. how to work at differant focal lengths.

The main issueisthatnot all lenses aremade by nikon etc...

Not to mention you can use any lens with it on! be it fisheye or
800mm tele

Yes but not to 4 stops...

Sony has scheduled a press conference with a number of photographers and photojournalists, which is due to occur on 5th-6th September.

They will be announcing their "advanced amateur" model then, along with at least five new lenses. (

This model is likely to have the same 12MP, 10fps APS-C CMOS sensor which is featured in the D300.

However, it's likely to be priced & featured somewhere in-between the current offerings by Nikon / Canon ...
e.g. "semi-pro", in-between 40D and D300,
or "above entry level", in-between D80 and 40D.
It is unlikely that it will be as expensive or as highly featured as the D300.

However; it will have anti-shake, which has likely undergone a third generation of improvement (particularly since the CMOS sensor is larger than the CCD previously used).

Advantages of anti-shake:

• works on all of your lenses, including all of your wide lenses, primes, plus third-party and second hand zoom lenses

• only consumes power when the photograph is taken

• display in viewfinder tells you how shakey you are

• every time a new body is released, the anti-shake for all your lenses is improved

Advantages of in-lens stabilisation:

• a few lenses have optimised stabilisers that work better than anti-shake

• the viewfinder is stabilised, which is particularly useful for tele lenses longer than 300mm

Disadvantages of anti-shake:

• if the anti-shake malfunctions then you have to send your camera to get repaired

• very minor (1-2%) vignetting is theoretically possible on APS-C cropped lenses, albeit never been a real problem

Disadvantage of in-lens stabilisation:

• range of lenses available is very limited

• additional of an extra, floating optical element to the lens reduces optical quality

• the cheaper stabilised lenses have less-effective stabilisers

Nikon call their system "Vibration Reduction" usually abbreviated to "VR".

Works in rather the same way as Canon's IS system in that the actual active VR components are built into the lens not the camera body - obviously only works if you have VR type lenses.

garykohswrote:

Having said all that, lens-based stabilization is - from all that
I've read - more effective. I have the 18-200 VR and it's a fine
lens. The stabilization works great. But it does cost more to buy VR
or IS (Canon) lenses, so whether Nikon and Canon really believe in
body stabilization is inferior or they just want to make money
selling lenses is an open question.

There is a 1 1/2 to 2-stop improvement in IS when it's in the lens and the lens is a telephoto, according to every test I've seen to date.

Second, please stop promulgating the myth that IS lensses are much more expensive than non-IS lenses. I've never seen anyone save a dime so far by having IS in the camera.

Your beloved KM is a perfect example, according to B&H:

Sony-KM Non-stabilized 70-200 f/2.8: $2299.99 (if you can get one)
Nikon Stabilized 70-200 f/2.8 VR: $1549.00 (in stock)

The bottom line: The non-image stabilized lens is ----$700 MORE---- than the Nikon one with IS in it.

Ergo, it seems to me that lens stabilization is -cheaper-, not to mention better. The "cost" of in-lens IS is a myth.
--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of The White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/whitepaper

I used to have a Pentax K10D, and now I have a D200 and an 18-200 VR lens.

The VR is more effective then the SR was on the pentax. Much more. It has the disandavantage that it only works on lenses that have it, but since I use the 18-200 most of the time, I don't mind that.

Michael

I have saved a lot of money.

My lens collection includes two cheap Sigma zoom lenses, one Tamron 17-50mm F2.8, plus 20mm and 50mm primes. Anti-shake covers all of them.

You cannot get VR for any of those lenses, and buying darker VR equivalents would cost me more.

For focal lengths of up to 50mm and/or at very short distances, I get about 2 stops benefit. For 100mm or longer and/or at longer distances, I get about 3.5 stops benefit.

That's not as good as an 18-200mm VR-II but that lens is a tad dark for my liking.

Every photographer I know who has a camera with anti-shake has saved money. The fact that there are two (hand-made) lenses in the system which are more expensive (than the Canikon mass-produced versions) does not balance against the dozens of other lenses which are cheaper, plus all of the second-hand and third-party lenses which are far cheaper.

E.g. the classic "beercan", a favourite lens amongst Minoltians... 70-210mm F4.0 ... metal build, internal zoom ... plentiful supply ... costs £100 in the UK

Anti-shake is sold as being more economical because it IS, for everyone who uses it.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/
http://two-truths.deviantart.com/gallery/

I guess it depends with what you want to shoot with...

e.g. take the Tamron 17-50mm F2.8 + Minolta 70-210mm F4.0

With the Sony/Minolta anti-shake system, the former lens would give about 2 stops benefit whilst the latter would give about 3.5 stops.

That is not as good as your 18-200mm F3.5-5.6 VR-II.

However;

1. The two lenses described give an aperture range of F2.8-4.0 (1/2EV to 1EV brighter than the 18-200mm).

2. £485 for the Nikon 18-200mm vs. £360 for the Tamron & Minolta
(25% cheaper)
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/
http://two-truths.deviantart.com/gallery/

Hokumwrote:

steelskiwrote:

I dont think I really understand what your saying but will reply anyway.
If you are generalising about in camera IS then please dont.
On the pentax forum, I have seen all sorts of problems that are
common.... but not one with the IS system, probably as it works on
magnets and not direct like the KM/Sony system.

I admit i havent heard of any pentax issue withpremature death, other
than its not very good at stabilizing!

LOL, you are speaking out your behind!!!

So what if the IS is lens specific. Can that not be programmed into
the camera. how to work at differant focal lengths.

The main issueisthatnot all lenses aremade by nikon etc...

again you truly are the king of A$$

Not to mention you can use any lens with it on! be it fisheye or
800mm tele

Yes but not to 4 stops...

LOL, prove me wrong.

stick that up your pipe and smoke it,

and dont link to the highly flawed test by phil. Praising the sony for getting so many stops improvement and the dissing the Pentax for getting less stops whilst ignoring that they both getting the same results. not to mention that at one meter and at such focal lengh you are really not going to achive much stabalization be it sensor or optical. A bit on the contriversial side.

Two Truths wrote:
[snip]

• additional of an extra, floating optical element to the lens

reduces optical quality

As much as I like in-body stabilization, I have to raise an objection to this point. The Nikkor 70-200VR doesn't seem to suffer at all from having VR. It rates just as well, if not better, than the 80-200/2.8 AF-S which it replaces. Size, weight and price have been complaints against this lens, but image quality hasn't.

larsbc

jp34med3wrote:

I think it's great for point-and-shoot cameras - but not dlsr's.
Biggest drawback - look at the flash sync speed. They usually have
at best 1/160-1/180 sec. Yet as soon as you turn on the in-camera
stabilazation it drops to around 1/125 sec. I'm not sure about you -
but for my uses that's way too low even without using stabilization
mode.

I realize we all have our own requirements, but I'm curious as to the conditions in which you need a fast flash sync and image stabilization?

larsbc

True; I should have written "can reduce optical quality"

I think this is as much an issue as the supposed "vigneting" problem using anti-shake with APS-cropped lenses. I have two APS-cropped lenses and I have never experienced noticable vigneting.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/
http://two-truths.deviantart.com/gallery/

1.

Those are both VR-II lenses, offering 4 stops of improvement, i.e. 1/30sec at 300mm.

Sony anti-shake will work down to about 1/50sec at 300mm, which is 3.5 stops.

Nikon has not got a lot of VR-II lenses in it's line-up, most of it's lenses offer 2 to 3 stops of improvement. E.g. 70-200mm F2.8G ED-IF VR offers 3 stops.

2.
UK prices:
Nikon 70-300mm F4.5-5.6 VR - £330
Sony 75-300mm F4.5-5.6 - £175
Sigma 70-300mm F4.0-5.6 Macro II Super - £150

Thus, the Sony lens costs nearly half the price of the Nikon, or else can save over well over that and get a third-party lens that has a pretty good reputation.

3.
Now compare the following:
Sony 85mm F1.4 ZA or 135mm F1.8 ZA
with the Nikon 85mm F1.4 or 135mm F2.0.

Sony
85mm F1.4: 3 stops ish
135mm F1.8: 3.5 stops

Nikon:
85mm F1.4: no stops
135mm F2.0: no stops

The major problem with the 5D / 7D cameras failing is called "FFB" - first frame black.

It is to do with the shutter mechanism and has nothing to do with anti-shake.

With the 7D there were initially some counts of anti-shake failure, less with the 5D, and fewer still with the Alpha 100. My camera had anti-shake failure, after I dropped it onto a hard surface from waist height. Sony repaired it free of charge and gave it back to me 10 days later.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/
http://two-truths.deviantart.com/gallery/

Two Truthswrote:

1.
Those are both VR-II lenses, offering 4 stops of improvement, i.e.
1/30sec at 300mm.

Sony anti-shake will work down to about 1/50sec at 300mm, which is
3.5 stops.

Nikon has not got a lot of VR-II lenses in it's line-up, most of it's
lenses offer 2 to 3 stops of improvement. E.g. 70-200mm F2.8G ED-IF
VR offers 3 stops.

2.
UK prices:
Nikon 70-300mm F4.5-5.6 VR - £330
Sony 75-300mm F4.5-5.6 - £175
Sigma 70-300mm F4.0-5.6 Macro II Super - £150

Thus, the Sony lens costs nearly half the price of the Nikon, or else
can save over well over that and get a third-party lens that has a
pretty good reputation.

3.
Now compare the following:
Sony 85mm F1.4 ZA or 135mm F1.8 ZA
with the Nikon 85mm F1.4 or 135mm F2.0.

Sony
85mm F1.4: 3 stops ish
135mm F1.8: 3.5 stops

Nikon:
85mm F1.4: no stops
135mm F2.0: no stops

Wow, you sure do love Sony! Well, for me there are a LOT more reasons to buy a D300 than just in-body vibration reduction.

And anyway:
1. I don't like the idea of a moving sensor
2. VR lenses can be used on any body. (Reverse argument.)

3. Price comparisons are almost always going to show Nikon/Canon on the high side.
--
JohnE
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